Comments on: Are Rosewoods (and Bubinga) really banned by CITES? https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/ WOOD Tue, 27 Jan 2026 18:28:13 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.3 By: Ken https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-35658 Tue, 27 Jan 2026 18:28:13 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-35658 This looks like a very old article, but it is interestingly informative. May I be permitted to ask a question that is immediately relevant to me? We have a legacy furniture set (couch and two side seats) that is likely made of rosewood in India. It has been in the family for over 45 years, and my wife wants ot nring it back to the US for personal use only. Her dad passed away, and her mom has moved into a retirement home.

Would we have restrictions on import? What should we know/have as far as documentation goes?

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By: Ana V. https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-35301 Wed, 21 Jan 2026 23:30:33 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-35301 In reply to Jerry Lansing.

same as with elephant ivory, it dwindles supply and drives up prices :(

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By: Ana V. https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-35300 Wed, 21 Jan 2026 23:26:20 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-35300 In reply to DR Chevalier.

and if you do, get it in OFFICIAL WRITING.

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By: Simon https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-28957 Mon, 14 Jul 2025 20:44:57 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-28957 The most annoying and counterintuitive aspect of this entire debacle, is the EUs understanding of this. Basically, every business and even every person who either sell or buy anything made with rosewoods that were logged, used and sold as finished pieces before this CITES addition, requires both the seller and the buyer to purchase a license to own the piece. It can’t be transferred or copied to the buyer and for every piece sold, a new license must be purchased. This is especially problematic for businesses that specialize in restoring and thus saving old furniture made decades ago, as it quickly becomes a crippling expense that can easily break a business, leading to more existing pieces ending on the dump, while demand increase due to fewer available pieces, leading to more illegal logging. I’ve heard they’re looking to change it, but in the way it is right now, a lot of people and businesses simply take the chance trading finished rosewood pieces without a license.

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By: DR Chevalier https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-26337 Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:04:31 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-26337 In reply to Bob St. Cyr.

With respect Bob, getting any kind of useful answer out of any department of the government of Canada is a serious challenge

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By: DR Chevalier https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-26336 Tue, 18 Mar 2025 15:02:24 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-26336 In reply to JD Cotton.

Fascinating chart, thank you for posting and the work involved. It does put paid to much of the musical instrument industry marketing BS in many areas, but as you have already noted, there are many different measurement types. Cheers!

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By: Leiif https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-22111 Mon, 13 May 2024 20:29:22 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-22111 In reply to Pat 456.

How far south? I am between 27 and 28 Lat

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By: Eric https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-20139 Tue, 01 Aug 2023 07:46:38 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-20139 In reply to Bob St. Cyr.

As far as CITES is concerned, you should be fine to own or use it. The only issue would come if you ever tried to export it to another country.

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By: Bob St. Cyr https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-20133 Sun, 30 Jul 2023 16:11:21 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-20133 Another question, I’m sure many are in this situation. As hobby woodworkers – I’m sure most of us are (I was a pro but now retires). We have material in our shop that we purchased some time ago, before it was restricted, we no longer have paper work that proves it’s origin or time. Can we use this material without running into difficulty?

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By: Bob St. Cyr https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-20121 Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:56:04 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-20121 In reply to Ruairisdad.

The cross border shipping paperwork issue makes no sense to me. Rosewood does not grow in the U.S. so it needs paperwork to satisfy cites to come into the U.S. Why wouldn’t the same paperwork be good enough to go with the wood if sent on to another country out of the U.S.
Part of the problem with Cites is that every country decides how it will be applied and enforced in that country. In Canada for instance it is Environment Canada. I have contacted them several times with cites questions and they never reply. I am a “hobby” guitar builder – I say hobby, I’ve been building guitars since 1972 and now that I’m retired I make several a year but it is not my income source – I only sell instruments because otherwise I would have to give up my hobby. Anyway I have Brazilian Rosewood that I purchased back in the 70’s and wonder – what happens if I build a guitar with it? I also have east indian rosewood, and some others that are questionable.

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By: Bob St. Cyr https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-20120 Sat, 29 Jul 2023 14:24:48 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-20120 I was under the impression that the guitar manufacturers were able to get and exemption for finished musical instruments that allows finished musical instruments (that are for personal use, not for resale) can travel, regardless of what wood they are made from.

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By: JD Cotton https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-20011 Wed, 28 Jun 2023 19:18:03 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-20011 Eric, this is an excellent article. Much of the discussion below focuses on wood substitutions based on appearance for furniture and cabinetry. Tonewoods have additional requirements, and I’ve been analyzing their performance using properties from your database to create a chart that ranks the “Acoustic Radiation Coefficient” of common tonewoods that might be helpful in comparing options relative to IUCN Red List status. Might be of interest to this community.

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By: Eric https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-19536 Mon, 24 Apr 2023 09:46:54 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-19536 I think the Prop 65 was well-intentioned, but is not always useful. The fact that there was a years-long legal struggle to not require that coffee (coffee!) be listed as containing carcinogens is a good example of this sort of thing being taken too far.

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By: S.Litle https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-19527 Sat, 22 Apr 2023 12:16:11 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-19527 I came upon your website when I was researching the Prop 65 warning on a piece of furniture I was looking to purchase. I have found it’s a very board term used by many to keep the manufacturers from a lawsuit. What are your thoughts on this Prop 65 out of California?

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By: Eduardo https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-17837 Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:14:44 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-17837 In reply to Dan.

It’s called circumvention. It’s not legal and you will 1) pay a fine, 2) get your stuff detained by customs officials, and 3) be liable for a comfy stay a federal facility.

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By: Ruairisdad https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-16984 Mon, 14 Mar 2022 22:36:31 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-16984 In reply to Eric.

Ah, yes, the language in the 2016 Fish and Wildlife Service letter was sloppy (it can be found at https://web.archive.org/web/20220120180640/https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/letter-appendix-III-timber-listings-november-2016.pdf). The current USDA Timber Manual also specifies finished products. So if someone in Canada pops across the border and buys a pen turning blank at a woodworking store, they couldn’t bring it home with them. :(

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By: Eric https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-16942 Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:03:34 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-16942 In reply to Ruairisdad.

I’m not sure all the exact criteria that’s used to determine eligibility, but the CITES appendices explicitly state the exemption applies only to “finished products.” (See attachment taken from current appendices.)

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By: Ruairisdad https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-16937 Wed, 09 Mar 2022 21:56:21 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-16937 In reply to Nyah.

Some inaccurate information here, as compared to what I gather from the documents I’ve read:

— CITES is not voluntary, at least not as far as its effect on individuals. It is an international treaty ratified by 182 countries, who have all agreed to implement laws and regulations in their countries to support CITES agreements. In contrast, FSC is an advocacy / marketing group.

— Appendix II listing is *not* a ban. As the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said in a 2016 letter published when the listings for these species were about to go into effect, “The Appendix-II listings are not bans or boycotts and should not be misinterpreted as such. On the contrary, Appendix-II documentation demonstrated that specimens were legally acquired and produced sustainably”. What the listing does mean is that importers must jump through hoops and provide documentation to USDA that the country of origin certified that the material was legally harvested as was approved for export. This is all documented in the USDA manual at https://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloads/cites.pdf. That’s why Appendix-II woods are still available.

— The reason wood sellers in the U.S. won’t ship outside the U.S. is because it’s too much of a hassle to come up with the paperwork and comply with the required procedures; that’s the purview of import/export specialists. In many cases, the typical wood seller would have difficulty coming up with the proper documentation for the wood they have in stock.

— The 10 kg exemption makes no mention of whether or not the shipment consists of finished pieces. However, the noncommercial proviso is key. Again, the USFWS says, “Under U.S. regulations (50 C.F.R. 23.5), ‘non-commercial’ means related to an activity that is not commercial, and includes but is not limited to personal use. ‘Commercial’ means related to an activity that is reasonably likely to result in economic use, gain, or benefit, including but not limited to, profit (whether in cash or in kind). Examples of non-commercial items include gifts, items not intended for sale that are carried in personal baggage or as part of a household move, and items that are personally owned and shipped to oneself”. So no, this exemption could not be used to supply luthier shops.

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By: Andrew https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-16399 Wed, 05 Jan 2022 06:30:32 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-16399 For further reading, I highly recommend James B. Greenberg, “Good Vibrations, Strings Attached: The Political Ecology of the Guitar,” 4 SOCIOLOGY AND ANTHROPOLOGY 431, 431-38 (2016), https://www.hrpub.org/download/20160430/SA14-19606271.pdf

If you want a substitute for ebony, there are a few options, depending on whether you use the ebony for sonic/structural purposes or decorative purposes. I have seen, used, owned, or heard of substitute uses of Sonowood, Blackwood Tek, Boxwood, and Massaranduba for sonic purposes, and you might consider dark Bog Oak if it’s color you’re after. European luthiers famously made the black parts of their purfling by staining pear wood black with the iron from nails.

Chain of custody is notoriously difficult to trace accurately in lumber supply chains, and is notoriously vulnerable to corruption and falsification. Caches of pre-existing material are likely to exist only under certain circumstances. As a case study, take a professional violin bow maker’s stash of pernambuco cut in the 80s–a violin bow may take a week to fully finish but uses about 1/10 of a board foot of pernambuco. But this is a highly idiosyncratic pattern of use.

CITES non-compliance is something of an open secret in the classical luthierie world, in fact. The volume of cheap, new pernambuco bows coming out of China and Brazil is a mathematical impossibility given the costs associated with fully compliant source material. The 50-year-old stocks from European makers either stayed in Europe with their students or were sold at high prices to Americans–they certainly didn’t go to Chinese sweat shops churning out bows for $100 apiece. Nevertheless, consumers are fed the myth that it’s all from pre-convention stocks. Perhaps less scrupulous dealers excuse themselves because the music world is poor, and margins are tight (I worked first as a musician, then in a violin shop, so I should know).

It is highly likely that any CITES-listed wood that is commercially available has gone through some sort of laundering process but was sourced illegally. The Lacey Act, 16 U.S.C. § 3373(a)(1), makes it a crime to purchase wood that is openly known to be illegal, but it is still a misdemeanor when the purchaser only *should know,* the wood is illegal. Fish and Wildlife has not been very eager to repeat the PR disaster of the ca. 2010 Gibson raids, however.

The most responsible thing to do is to find alternatives or, if you feel you must, to buy CITES-listed wood from individuals, not corporations, residing in your same country. If you think your specialist woodworking store or tonewood supplier has entirely clean hands, read between the lines of their website, then ask them probing questions. I’ve gotten some suspicious, resentful looks and terse responses–and that’s how you know something’s up. On the other hand, retiring fine woodworkers, who you can have an honest conversation with, are unlikely under the circumstances to be doing any smuggling, and often built up extensive stocks over the course of a pre-convention career.

If you are making furniture, cutting boards, knife handles, or decorative objects…. c’mon, find a pretty domestic burl or something. If you are making a musical instrument (I make bows), consider the numerous very fine-sounding ones in non-threatened material. There are some great Claro Walnut guitars and basses out there, and Dominique Peccatte made plenty of snakewood, ironwood, and massaranduba bows.

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By: Dan https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/rosewoods-bubinga-really-banned-cites/comment-page-1/#comment-16025 Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:51:41 +0000 http://www.wood-database.com/?page_id=18922#comment-16025 In reply to Eric.

I wonder what would be the legality of selling finished serving trays that happen to be about the size of acoustic guitar back and sides and then repurposing them once imported.

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